Slap wrote:
Libertine 62 wrote:
Have you been fully paying attention to the past 30+ years? Maybe it is different over there mate but here people were actually preyed upon, and sometimes even out and out pressured, by the banks to take out loans on/for homes that they, the banks, knew they could not afford. All under the (greedy) guise that the values of homes would go up for evermore. It was a lie that everyone from the bankers, to the financial experts, to the talking heads on TV insisted was true. And people who questioned those lies were referred to as idiots. Was it wise to buy that snake oil from the banks? No, but then again people are gullible.

Add to that the massive redeuction in the tax rates the upper earners have to pay, deregulation of businesses, costly unfunded wars, the allowing our jobs to be exported for the profit of the very few over the past 30 years and the picture starts becoming clearer what the real problems are. And you seem to think that people who have pensions, have been promised those pensions and now are being told to go pound sand because those pensions are being taken away due to no fault of their own, are idiots?

The last time the wealthy elite in the West uttered the words "let them eat cake" it didn't turn out too well for the elite. This is the West, and while a good many people outside of the top 1% are still doing well, it is the first time since the dawn of the 20th century when there are more people who are heading down the economic ladder as opposed to going up it. That is unacceptable...

I would cut the wealthy elite some slack if they were creating jobs other than in Asia. But they're not. And that is at the root of our problems. No amount of additional tax breaks, or business friendly deregulation, will make them start creating those jobs. So you are against that "single-aim pressure group" who want job creation for workers desperate for jobs which the elite refuse to create?



30+ years? Err, no Lib, I haven't. I'm younger than that mate.

Sorry, but if you take out a loan you can't afford to pay back you are an idiot. If a banker told you to jump off a cliff would you? I just want to see people taking some responsibility for the problems that they have been involved in the creation of. I am sick of hearing people blindly blaming the bankers as if some sort of demonic bogey-man hypnotised them into committing to a financial agreement that wasn't viable for them. 

The financial regulators created an environment that allowed bankers to sell loans they shouldn't have done, bankers decided to sell loans they knew people couldn't afford for the bank's gain, people were stupid enough to take out loans that they couldn't afford and government(s) failed to control the financial regulators correctly to ensure they were doing their job. All are culpable, not just the banks.

I bought a house earlier this year and took out a mortgage in order to pay for it. We shopped around and one of the banks offered us, what I considered to be, an unreasonably large amount of money. Did I grab the cash and buy a bigger house? No! Of course I didn't because I would have been at risk of not being able to sustain the payments. Instead I took a smaller mortgage that was within my means and bought a smaller house.

As to the pensions point, perhaps I wasn't clear. I think that civil servants in their 20s and 30s who are chanting "What do we want - pensions, when do we want them - now" are idiots as they are not retired so shouting that you want your pension "now" is stupid. Obviously it is difficult to read humour in the written word (particularly on an emotive subject) but that statement was supposed to be funny.

Clearly people not getting the pensions that they were initially promised is a problem but I don't see how a strike whilst talks are ongoing is constructive.

By "single aim pressure group" I mean the sort of people who campaign against cuts in funding for education but don't care about cuts in health. Or people who spend their whole time trying to reduce carbon emissions by targeting aviation only. Or those whose entire aim in the world is to stop the use of plastic bags in supermarkets. Clearly I am not against a single aim pressure group whose aim is to "make the world a better place".


Well here is the rub. You come out and say that the banks failed by making the risky loans and the governments failed by allowing, and in some cases encouraging, those risky loans to be made. But then it seems you go on and put the onus on the "idiot" borrowers when the banks failed by making the improper loans and there was no government oversight to make sure that the loans being made met the basic standards in terms of the borrower being qualified to take out that loan. Hate to say it most people if offered money, even under the conditions that it be paid back, will always take the money even if there are doubts whether they can repay it. That why from where I sit the blame belongs mostly with the banks for bad business practices, in making unsecured risky loans, and the government not having enough regulations which would have prohibited the banks from doing so. I am not letting the borrowers off the hook but of the three parties most culpable they are third on that list.

Why shouldn't the younger workers be concerned about their pensions? When I was in my 20's I was planning for it already by getting into the 401K where I worked at the time (GenRe). It is still accumulating money even though I no longer contribute to the fund. Public sector workers have always been on the short end of the employment stick as opposed to private sector workers. The pay is much better, or at least it used to be, in the private sector so for public sector workers the "carrot" was better benefits (health care here in the States and great pensions). Now that the private sector decided it was more important to make maximum profit they have cut the wages and benefits of their workers to the point that it makes the public sector look like they're getting some gold plated deal...when they are not.

And about all those "single issue" groups. I don't look at them as single issue entities. It is all a part of the tapestry of the left. Worker's rights, women's rights, environmentalists, education advocates, civil rights/liberties, human rights, etc, are all things being fought for over many decades. The work has been long and tiring but progress had been made. But now that progress, which generations of people of fought for to give us all a better life, is under assualt. Are people going about it the proper way on every issue? Probably not. But I will not begrudge them if they look at what they believe are the biggest theat(s) to their most important issue and attack that portion of the problem. And right now there are forces actively trying to undo everything that was accomplished. To the point that Newt Gingrich is actually babbling about removing, of all things, child labor laws and suggesting that 13 year-olds should be janitors. WTF???!!! I am sure he wouldn't mind bringing back those sweatshops which used to make those kids work 18 hours a day in conditions that often resulted in serious injury and in some cases death. Add to that we don't have a enough jobs for adults, never mind employing kids as janitors who should be studying to ensure they have the best opportunity for a sound economic future as an adult, and it shows you the mindset of the people we on the "left" are fighting against.




Debauch...Debase...Defile.